EPISODE 5: Nam Kiwanuka

Erica Ehm gets personal with Namugenyi "Nam" Kiwanuka about the lasting impact of escaping Uganda as a child on her, why she turned down a VJ job at MuchMusic three times,  and the interviews that had a profound effect on her.

She tells the story of how a chance meeting with Master T changed her life, how her hair became a political statement, and why becoming a mother is her proudest achievement.

Nam is a powerhouse, a trailblazer, a risk-taker and a talented, fierce journalist who continues to challenge herself and others. Be prepared for an emotional conversation with this former MuchMusic VJ who refuses to let her past define her.

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Speaker 1 (00:00:07):

You spend your whole life during the first two hours, and then suddenly everybody needs it.

Speaker 2 (00:00:11):

Erica [inaudible] of the VJ, a flashback on the career that made them who they are today. On this episode,

Speaker 1 (00:00:20):

You have to do everything on your own. Um, which is interesting because when I was, when I started at TVO, it was the opposite. We had a prompter, it wasn't live. And I struggled Erica, Oh my God, you're watching combat zone. I'm getting killed or get here. How are you doing? How's everyone doing here? People don't understand how difficult it can be because when you're a VJ, everybody has this idea that, Oh my God, it's like the best job in the world. And it, there are aspects of it that are incredible. Um, but then there's also challenges about being a VJ and then after what you do next, it's never as impressive. You know,

Speaker 2 (00:00:58):

This is Erica M's re-invention of the VJ. Now here's Erica M hi everyone.

Speaker 3 (00:01:04):

I'm Eric M. And welcome to what is sure to be a pretty powerful episode of my reinvention of the VJ podcast. Why powerful? Because this ex VJ is a powerhouse. She's a trailblazer. She's a, risk-taker at talented, fierce journalist who continues to challenge herself and others. Today. I am so thrilled that my guest is mammoth any Q a Nuka. Now, before we hear NAMS, incredible story. Let me give you a little bit of background about this podcast. I was told that if I wanted to launch a podcast, I should pick a topic that only I could do it justice. So, you know, what is something that I could speak to with authority that only very few people could do? Sure. I can speak to motherhood. Having built the YMC community and a marketing agency that focuses on connecting to moms, but being an ex VJ who has changed careers and grown businesses and reinvented myself.

Speaker 3 (00:02:05):

That is what really resonated with me. And so I created re-invention of the VJ unscripted and heartfelt conversations with the talented and much loved on-air hosts that you probably grew up watching on much music. I was only at much for the first decade. So many of the guests on the show I've never actually worked with, but there is one thing that we all have in common. Each of us played a small part in Canada's most influential pop culture platform. And then we left each of us at different times, all of us for different reasons. Each of us headed off on our next, hopefully exciting adventures. And it's that story of what happens after much, the reinvention, the resilience, innovation, some luck, the struggles, and most importantly, the, that intrigues me. I want you to know that I'm so grateful that you've chosen to listen to the show today.

Speaker 3 (00:03:07):

So while you're listening to Nam and I speak, I hope that you find some tidbits or insights into what it takes to get through some tough times or to reinvent or how to get what you want in life that you can apply to your own experience. And right after I finished my interview with Nam, listen, this is so important. I'm going to be sharing a dedicated phone line for reinvention of the VJ. How fancy is that? We set it up so you can call in, and then you can tell me which much VJ I should interview. Next. You can offer up questions that you'd like answered. You can reminisce about an interview that you remember on much or something else that you saw on much. That really means a lot to you. And of course, give us feedback on the show because the only way this show will evolve is if we understand what's working and not working for you, I'm going to be totally honest here.

Speaker 3 (00:04:04):

I'm having way more fun doing the show than I actually imagined. It's allowing me to have these conversations with fascinating people who I only would have met through much connections, which brings me to today's guest Namah again, Q1 Nuka went on air at much in 1999, five years after I had left, our paths never crossed until social media brought us together. Last year, we went out for lunch and she blew me away. Ma'am welcome to reinvention of the VJ. I can't remember. How did we first connect was I like fan girling, you or something? What happened?

Speaker 4 (00:04:45):

It was, um, uh, you, something, something was happening, uh, for you on Twitter. And I kept re tweeting cause I was like, Oh my God, I'm I need to read Erica. No, I just, I always admired you. And, um, when you were doing the [inaudible], I had children, um, my oldest is nine. I found myself in a situation where it's like, you become a different person when you have children. Right. Um, and people didn't really talk about what it is like to what life is like after you give birth. Uh, you know, you have books that document, the, you know, Oh, it's a P then it's watermelon. And I was obsessed with reading books about the development of what was happening inside my body, but it was always about the baby. You know, all the books are about what's happening with the baby, but not what's happening to the individual.

Speaker 4 (00:05:35):

And then after I had birth, I had a really traumatic birth. So I was always on your website trying to find information. Um, and something happened for you on Twitter. And I was so proud of you because I think the adjustment from being a VJ to what's next people don't understand how difficult it can be because when you're a VJ, everybody has this, um, idea that, Oh my God, it's like the best job in the world. And it, it, there are aspects of it that are incredible. Um, but then there's also challenges about being a VJ. And then after what you do next, it's never as impressive. You know? Um, I was joking around with, uh, a former much music DJ and she's gone on to do amazing things. Um, she went to an Ivy league school and he was this Jennifer Collins. And it was interesting that, uh, every time her bio, it always says former much music DJ.

Speaker 4 (00:06:27):

And I was like, Jen, but you went to Harvard, but it's always former much music BJ. So it's like, that becomes the defining thing of who you are, who you were before that no one really, I don't know. Um, cause it's just being a VJ is like the pinnacle of success. Right. But then life is bigger than that. So I turned to you when I was a mom, but it was also because before I became a VJ, I watched everything that you did on much music. I never thought that I would be a VJ. I just never thought that I could achieve that. But I always admired you. You were so fearless, you had your own sense of style and then you were hanging around all these dudes. And it was just like before we even had the language of like mansplaining or whatever, I, I thought that you were always men mansplained a lot. And I loved your interview with Kurt Cobain. Um, everything that you did was just, you know, so you had a sense of fearlessness at a time when we didn't have the language. And I don't know if you realize how many young girls were watching you, uh, and found power in what you were doing. So, uh, the moment that we, I was able to follow you on Twitter, um, I was like follow and just followed everything that you were doing. So I think this is so powerful.

Speaker 5 (00:07:36):

Yeah. Because in my mind that didn't happen in my mind, people were talking about you. And I was like, I need to track her down because she sounds like my kind of person. Yes. We went through similar things on much, but what you were doing and are doing today, um, I wanted, I was fan girling. You. So I, I, I think it's a beautiful thing when women have this mutual admiration society. And when we sat down and had Chinese food together, right near TVO where you're currently working, we were, I mean, who knew what kind of conversation would we had? But I, I remember that the food came in, both of us kind of ignored it.

Speaker 4 (00:08:18):

Yes, we were at, it took us a long time to order because we were chatting so much. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (00:08:23):

And I, and I, I was thinking, you're unbelievable. First of all, I think I asked you, like, how did you get into much? And you went back to being a refugee from Uganda. And my, I remember my jaw dropping and I mean, I loved you before, but after you told me what you have persevered through, just blew my mind. Please tell everybody, how did you to Canada

Speaker 4 (00:08:56):

From Uganda? Um, I mean, I it's all due to a woman in London, Ontario, her name is Sydney Tibet. She died, um, six years after I met her. Um, but those six to seven years, ish that I had with her, um, I think it changed the projection of my life. But anyway, um, we were, I was born during the civil war, um, in Uganda. And at the time there was a power struggle between people like Milton [inaudible] Adeyemi. And I think a lot of people know EDM mean because he was so brutal. Um, and so I was born during the civil war and my family left, uh, during the mid eighties. And we left Uganda and actually walked to Kenya, um, to the border of Kenya. There was a refugee camp there. So we lived in the refugee camp for over from, from what I've been told, I think it was between a year, a year and a half.

Speaker 4 (00:09:56):

Um, and then we went to Nairobi for a little bit before we were, um, sponsored by Sydney and who became my grandmother. But, um, I remember like, so I came to Canada when I was around 10. And I remember, uh, there's a lot of things that I remember that, uh, you know, um, I think kind of, I don't want to say, I think when you go through, um, bad things or when you grow up in an environment that is dangerous or, um, uh, you know, I just, I remember waking up in middle of the night and you could just hear like the rat attack, tide of machine guns, our house was bombed one night. Uh, we will come up and those flames everywhere. Um, you would see, you know, like dead bodies in the street. Um, and it was interesting because life still continued. Uh, we still try to go to school, um, when we could, um, my dad was gone a lot because he was a young man and it was really dangerous for young men because they were either, they either they had to pick sides.

Speaker 4 (00:11:08):

And, um, so I, I lived with a lot of different people and other things also happen when you're not with the people that, uh, you know, brought you into this world. So, uh, all these different layers of trauma, um, I never really understood it until I think I had children because I think I was an autopilot for most of my life. Um, and I think once we came to Canada and this incredible human being, um, so she, I don't even know how, like it, I would love to have conversations with her. We just, weren't the only family that she sponsored. She sponsored families from a family from Vietnam, one from Somalia, one from China. Um, she had a huge heart. She never had children of her own. She had cancer from a very young age. Um, but she was married and she was a business woman.

Speaker 4 (00:11:58):

She ran, I think she was the first woman in Ontario to have a business that, uh, helped women who've had like, uh, invasive surgeries. So if you had a mastectomy, she would have brawls that mimicked, you know, you having a symmetry S she was an innovator. Um, and I really wished that I could have like these conversations with her, but she's been gone for a very long time. But I think when you are brought up in that foundation of trauma, there's white, you there's a lot of things that you don't know. She was the first one, the person that told me that she loves me. And I didn't know what that meant. I just knew that I felt safer, safest with her. And one thing I remember from being in Uganda was that if you have an education, you can change your life. You can pull, you can pull yourself out of poverty.

Speaker 4 (00:12:50):

It is something that was ingrained in us from a very, very young age. And in order to go to school, especially as a girl, you had to have really good marks and we would compete. You had to be like one of top three, if you're not in top three. Oh my gosh, your life is gone. So even after I moved to Canada, my, I think the trauma from my dad was compounded because when my grandmother, I think one thing that was interesting for her about RC tuition, my dad was a single father raising four children. And I think maybe she thought that she could help. Um, so her church from London, Ontario apparently was doing some kind of missionary work in the camp. And they heard about us. And my dad had applied for refugee status to the United States, Australia and Canada, and had been rejected for the other two until some, this woman, the stranger who had never even seen a picture of us decided to, uh, help us.

Speaker 4 (00:13:43):

And it wasn't just like when she brought us to Canada, it wasn't even about, okay, you're here. You know, uh, my, my job has done. She didn't, she helped us integrate into Canadian life. Like she would take us, um, strawberry picking in the summer. Uh, we would, she took us to me per syrup farms to see how like the maple syrup was made and we could get a sense of, um, you know, what it was like to be in Canada and she, to all of that. So I felt, I always felt so lucky to be a person that was able to come to Canada because I had cousins, uh, who weren't able to come. And even after my dad, my dad went through a really hard time and he changed. Um, and I think as a parent, now I can, I can distinguish the person he was before he had children. And when he had children and the trauma that he experienced and then the person that he became, but he became very abusive. Um, and he kicked me out of the house. I think I left when I was almost when I was around 16 or 17. Um, again, a lot of that time, me, it was just autopilot autopilot. And I just knew that I needed to finish high school. I did go a little buck, wild,

Speaker 3 (00:15:00):

You have all this,

Speaker 4 (00:15:01):

You know, cause he was very strict and we would go clubbing and partying and you know, um, but I always knew that I needed to finish school. And then I put myself through university. Um, and then it was through university. I was at an event somewhere, a master T was getting an award. And I was, I think it was my first year of journalism at Ryerson. And my friend was like, just go talk to him. I'm like, I don't want to look like a groupie. I don't want her, you know, cause I was just, I didn't know what to say to him without being like, Hey, she's like just say, you know, tell him what you're doing. And so I wanted to him when I said, you know, I would love to work at much music. Uh, how can I intern? And he said to me, call my, uh, producer on Monday and uh, she'll set something up. So I thought he was actually like pulling my leg. So I was like, whatever,

Speaker 3 (00:15:51):

Aye

Speaker 4 (00:15:51):

Call. And I called, I think a week later because something was nagging me. And then, um, the producer was like, I was, I was waiting for your call. We've filled the position. And I was like, what? Cause I really thought that he was pulling my leg. And I think that was one of the biggest lessons I learned not to, um, walk away from opportunity. I just to follow all leads and you know, be true to your word because I said that I was going to call and master T had gone out on limb for me. And then I was just like, ah, he's just kidding, whatever. Uh, so anyway, um, I was like, okay, lesson learned. And then for the next year I would send the producer, uh, clippings that I was doing from like articles. I was writing at the, uh, eye-opener at Ryerson, uh, things that I was working on. Um, and after a year she's like, fine. I just want to meet you. I'm tired of you calling me. Cause I think I would call her at least once every two weeks, once I was this who was on Chavonne Grana. Yeah. And, uh, so she eventually said fine come. And then, uh, once I was an intern, I was like, I just did anything and everything that was asked of me.

Speaker 3 (00:16:59):

Okay. I want to go back to something that you just sort of grazed over. I put myself through school. So you're living alone. You're 16, 17 years old. How exactly did you put yourself through school?

Speaker 4 (00:17:16):

So my grandmother, um, before she died, she was sick. Uh, I didn't realize how sick she was. So when my dad kicked us out, it was December. Um, and she ended up dying the November following and she helped us find an apartment, uh, myself, my oldest sister and my cousin and we, she co-signed Elise. And so we were able to, um, get an apartment and then I, we, I worked at Wendy's. So in the morning I would open, I would open the store. I would go to work at six, uh, and then try to get out of there by 10 and then go to class. I was late for classes, some classes I missed, but, um, I was working in the morning and after school and then going to school, like th this was still high school. Um, and then going to school during whatever hours that could fit in, because my goal was just, I just wanted to graduate.

Speaker 4 (00:18:11):

Um, and that's how I paid rent. And then, um, yeah, so, and then after that I managed, then we moved to Toronto and that was hard, but then I wanted to get into engineering, but because I could never study, I was always working, trying to pay for rent. And, um, cause I didn't know, like there was, you know, children's aid society and even now I think back and I feel really sad that none of my teachers stepped into help. None of my teachers said, why aren't you in class? Um, why, uh, are you coming late? Like no one seemed to care and uh, it's not, it wasn't even just the school, but even like extended family that like adults around my, you know, my aunties and my uncles, because everybody had such a, um, a loyalty to my father. So it was kind of like, you know, yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:19:09):

And so it was just kind of like your, it was always something that in my mind, from a very young age that I was like, I don't trust grownups. So when all this stuff happened, it just kind of solidified that for me. But I always something that's always like, if you get an education you're going to be okay. So it just, you know, and there were times when I just wanted to drop out, but then part of it is like, if I drop out, then I'm all these people who want bad for me. I proved them wrong. So I'm kind of stubborn. Um, I'm kind of stubborn and I liked going to school. I loved learning and I was getting good marks. Um, and you know, there's a part of me. That's always like, um, one of the great things about working at TVO now, it's like, I get to relearn, like I'm getting an education and actually get the opportunity to really learn where my thoughts are not split in so many ways.

Speaker 4 (00:20:05):

Even in university, once I got to university, I couldn't even believe I got into university. Um, and I have pretty high marks. Uh, but university was tough. Uh, it was really tough and there was a point when I almost ended up on the street and I ended up living in a rooming house and that's when, um, I was at much music and one of the, I was living in a rooming house when I got one of my first jobs at much music, my first paying gig, which was doing graphics for electric circus. And, uh, I'd been interning there for a year and I think they appreciated my work. Um, my work ethic work ethic. Yeah. My work ethic I put in the hours, I would work late at night because I was in school during the day. And then after I would go to much music, an intern and then they would ask me, do you want to do this? And I'm like, yes. I always said yes. And then they had a job opening up for, so the AC job was one Friday. Um, I would get paid for one day, but the amount of money I made in that shift covered my rent in the rooming house. So I was making like $200 a month, but it was $200 enough to keep me from losing my place in the rooming house. And then I just started building on that. And then, um, eventually the VJ cake came out.

Speaker 5 (00:21:25):

Yeah. I've got to tell you something. You and I have parallel lives, mine fraught with right privilege. And so I moved out of the house when I was about 17, but because I wanted to, and I went and worked in the music business. So I also worked from a very young age earning a living so that I could stay afloat, but I did have, like, my parents were didn't help me at the time because I moved out. I was a rebel, but I had them in the background. I was not unsafe. And, um, I also went and asked for what I wanted, but again, I always had that safety net behind me. So I can't even imagine the intensity and the drive that you had in order to persevere through what you had to deal with financially and emotionally like you were alone. Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 5 (00:22:25):

Let's compare notes about our time at much. Okay. So when I was at much, which was 1985 to 94, we were really on our own. There were, there were no scripts. The directors were basically just working with the crew to set up shots, but we, the BJ's were on our own. There was no one helping us with makeup, uh, with outfits, um, with research, uh, with anything. Yeah. So I'm going to fast forward to your time, which was significantly after much. It started, it was 15 years after much went on the air. What was it like to be a VJ working at that time?

Speaker 4 (00:23:06):

It was similar with the exception we had makeup. That was the only thing that was the only thing that was different outfits. You had to figure that out on your own, especially for the much music video awards you're on your own. Um, the teleprompter, there was no teleprompter. You, it was you and the camera and you had to figure it out. You either had to sink or swim. I remember my first shift. Um, it was an interview with the pet shop boys and they had, I think it was like their 20th anniversary. I, it was a compilation album, a CD. And I remember, um, Denise Donlin who hired me, she was standing right by the camera. Um, like this, her arms crossed and I'm doing a live interview. I've never done live television. I didn't even want to be a BJ. Uh, and somehow I was now on the other side of the camera and I'm interviewing these iconic musicians. And it's like, if I screw it up, I screw it up. If I don't, I don't. And, uh, it was my first day. And usually they, you only did half a shift, but for me, for some reason, Denise was like, you're doing a full,

Speaker 6 (00:24:14):

So it was twice as long on air live air. But I think it was like the

Speaker 4 (00:24:18):

Biggest favor that she could have done to for me, because I started from a level of, okay, well, it can't get any worse than that. Okay.

Speaker 6 (00:24:28):

And it wasn't bad. It was actually,

Speaker 4 (00:24:30):

It's fine. Um, but it was hard in the sense that, you know, depending on who the Florida rector was, if the Florida director didn't like you, and at the time the one I worked with, she didn't like me. Um, she, I love you too, sweetie. My daughter in the back is like, huh,

Speaker 6 (00:24:45):

I love you. She's so good for my spirit. Um,

Speaker 4 (00:24:49):

She just never helped. So it was kind of like you're, you're in a new environment. Um, and you know, people are looking at you like why this person and you have to gain the trust of the crew. And the crew was lovely. And I think the crew was rooting for me because I, before I became a VJO as a videographer. And before that I was, um, doing, uh, I was working in the library, dubbing tapes and, uh, working on the V in VTR. So after I did my first throw, they clap for me. And it just felt so good because they were reading for me. But yeah, you have to do everything on your own. Um, which is interesting. Cause when I was, when I started at TVO, it was the opposite. We had a prompter, it wasn't live. And I struggled Erica. Oh my God. Cause it was like,

Speaker 6 (00:25:35):

Okay, tonight on the I judges, I struggled because I came from a bad

Speaker 4 (00:25:40):

Background where it was live unscripted, everything was in your head. Um, and for me and you're going on adrenaline, right. I don't know if about you, like, I don't know if you've finished when you finish your shift, you were just so bone tired because it's like you're using everything, right?

Speaker 5 (00:25:56):

Yes. Because it was chaos in there. So the amount of focus required to get through the day because there was no script. So basically you would, how would you prepare for a show? For example,

Speaker 4 (00:26:10):

I would do my own, well, obviously because no one did the research for you. I would do my own research. And as I became more of a pro, I guess I would, uh, write my throws, memorize them. Um, and sometimes I would just riff with a crew and you're right. There were phones, ringing. People are looking at you through the glass. Um, people walking in the background of your shot stuff is happening over here. It wasn't, uh, actually you start to kind of like thrive off that energy, that kind of like that chaotic energy and you kind of spin it to, um, kind of, uh, to feed off on.

Speaker 5 (00:26:48):

I agree with that, that, that spinning it. It actually makes a lot of sense to me. I could feel that I certainly use that energy. And in fact, a lot of people who are speakers by trade now who go in front of audiences to speak, which is not dissimilar to what we would do at much. It just so happened that it was a camera now in COVID when everything is being done, virtually people are complaining that there's no energy because there wasn't an, there isn't an in-house audience. And at much there was because the crew would listen to what you're doing and they would be reacting off of you. It was an interactive, interactive experience for sure. But I'm going to go back to something that you said, which again, you just popped in there. I didn't want to be a VJ.

Speaker 7 (00:27:37):

Yeah. Yeah. People would have were cutting off their right arms,

Speaker 5 (00:27:44):

Left legs in order to be a VJ and you didn't want to be a VJ and suddenly you were a VJ. You, how did that happen? Well,

Speaker 4 (00:27:52):

Well, this is the thing I grew up. Um, I guess also being growing up in a very chaotic environment where you were to be seen and not heard, uh, w effect, I became very introverted. I'm actually a very shy person. And when people meet me, they're like, no, you're not I'm. I am. Um, but not, I, I I'll tell you a story. When we first came to Canada, I was supposed to go into grade four, but because I didn't speak English very well, I was put back a grade. So grade three, I have to do some speech in front of my class. And I was so nervous just to stand up in front of the class and to do this thing. I was up all night. Um, and I didn't have anyone at home to talk about it, to give me any, you know, um, any confidence tips or anything like that.

Speaker 4 (00:28:38):

So I went in and I did it. And my teacher said, just look on the top of the people's heads and you'll be fine. And I did the speech and I left and I was like, Oh, that wasn't so bad. And then she says, what happened? I go, what do you mean? What happened? I did what you said. She said, you were looking at the ceiling the whole time. So I was literally like this and I didn't realize that that whole time I was looking at the ceiling, but so the way I became, uh, as much music VJ was that, uh, Denise one day said to me, I want you to do a demo tape. I want you to be on camera. And I was like, no, thank you. And I said it to her three times. I said, no, thank you. I was like, no way.

Speaker 4 (00:29:16):

Um, and also just to go back a little bit throughout my team from the age of 13, until like 21, I had really bad acne. And it was like, my acne had acne. So I was like, and then now I just, I still saw myself as that person who just kind of melted into the walls. And so I kept saying no, and the third time she says, you don't say no to your boss. So I was like, Ooh. So I did a tape, I did three tapes and they were really bad. And then the third one, she said, okay, fine. This is good enough to show Moses. And before Moses namer would approve all the on-air talent, like, you know, and I had to walk upstairs. It was like,

Speaker 6 (00:29:53):

I'm walking to the end of my life,

Speaker 4 (00:29:55):

Go upstairs. He watches my tape. He's like, it's awful. It's terrible. I felt like I was going to cry. And then he says, yeah, but there's something there. You've got the job.

Speaker 6 (00:30:04):

So in like in one breath, he's like, you're terrible. But then yeah, you're fine. So that's how I got the job. Well that doesn't give a newbie, a lot of confidence to face the camera. You're terrible. But there's something there there's something there because I need, cause

Speaker 4 (00:30:20):

My real was so, you know, um, actually I forgot that was the first TP saw it. Then I didn't another tape where I was just being myself. I think I had my friends over, we were like chatting about music. And then he was like, yeah, this is fine.

Speaker 6 (00:30:36):

I don't think I've ever had a compliment since come to think of it. It was like, this is fine.

Speaker 4 (00:30:40):

Which was like, okay, you can go ahead. But yeah. Um, that's how, it's interesting that Denise saw something in myself that I didn't see because I just wanted to be in that environment. I wanted to work in broadcasting. I didn't see myself as being on air because hi, how many people back then even now are on camera that looked like me. Right? Um, so when she was like, I want you to do this. I was like, no, thank you. I don't want to, because I just never thought of it. But I'll tell you something, Erica. Um, I've never laughed as well. Now before that I've never laughed as much as when I was at much music, I rediscovered my laugh. Like I laughed and it brought me so much joy. Like I felt so light when I was not to say that it wasn't difficult. Of course it was hard. You had labeled people who are just misogynistic and whatever you had, all that stuff that you had to deal with. Um, you know, the audience telling you, you suck or whatever, but I felt like I rediscovered a part of myself that I didn't even know was, was missing in the first place.

Speaker 5 (00:31:53):

That makes sense. It does. And I felt that I, when I first started to work at much, I was an angry young girl. I don't know why I probably leftover from being an adolescent. I'm not sure. Cause I started quite young and working at much really made me a happier person. I'm not sure why I found it cathartic, partly because, and I thought about this a lot is our job at much was to show up every single day and entertain people for four hours. No, I was told at a young age, by someone who worked in the industry that no one really cares how you feel as the performer, your job is to, you know, bring it every, it doesn't matter how you would feel. So I'd come in. You know, a boyfriend had dumped me or, you know, I was in a fight with my roommate or something  had happened. And it didn't matter because when you know, Craig would go five, four, three, two, one year up, I had to smile and go, Hey, how you're, how are you doing? And if you fake it, you S I think there must be something like serotonin or something or dopamine that, that goes through your body. And if you start acting happy, you start feeling happy. And it actually changed my life. And it, it, it almost grew a muscle of being able to change my mood when I was feeling down. I guess you also, yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:33:28):

Yes, yes. I think, um, it's, uh, I think also to the environment because it's music, right? And, uh, I, as cliche as it is the music heals, it really does. And it connects people. So for me, it was making a connection with people and, uh, this muscle, now it's one of those you can meet and talk to anyone really. And what I found so fascinating moving from the world of celebrity to interviewing a lot of politicians or policymakers, I found that celebrities were more easy to talk to. Um, then, and I know people in policy, they, they have to protect, you know, like I get it. Um, but I found that I was more intimidated speaking to policy makers than I was with people like

Speaker 5 (00:34:17):

Policy makers, my God, you listen to politicians today and they have their rhetoric down and you ask them a question and they answer something else. So it is a hard gig right now to get a straight answer from anybody. So hats off to anybody who is in the, you know, journalistic media today, who ha who is trying to get a story. That's like, let's use the word true. Yeah,

Speaker 4 (00:34:44):

Exactly. And I think people don't understand how hard it is. Like when you do meet people and you have to connect with them. Um, even I think speaking to when you do interviews, uh, it doesn't matter who that individual is. I really don't think it matters. I have this. Everyone has a story. And when you do find yourself in these situations where you are interviewing someone, you have to gain their trust very quickly. And if you don't, I think being at much music helped in the sense that your live TV and your life and the adrenaline and being, I actually prefer having learned the trade on a live platform without a teleprompter. I think it's really helped my muscle memory. And also being able to just kind of move on and not being, I don't know how it was for you when you left. I found that when I did decide to leave, a lot of people assume that one, I was fired, uh, two, they couldn't believe that I had left.

Speaker 4 (00:35:47):

Like, why would you leave? You know? And then the thing that surprised me the most number three was I lost a lot of friends. I thought that I had all these friends that I made when I was at much music, uh, that there were my friends, but it was about the job. So the job became a thing that really defined who you were as an individual. When I was in the job, everybody wanted to talk to me and be my friend. And then when I decided to leave, it was like, okay, uh, like 98% of the people who I thought were my friends are not my friends. You know?

Speaker 5 (00:36:19):

Wow. That, to me, that's heavy. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:36:22):

It's one of those jobs that defined you. Uh, and you might think, Oh my, uh, my job doesn't define me. And then when you leave, you're like, Oh, my job did define me. Okay.

Speaker 5 (00:36:32):

Actually, I'm going to give you proof that it defines you. Because when I was doing research to have this conversation, I found an article from 2013 and the headline, let me see if I can find this. There was a headline in 2013 that said this former much music VJ is making an impact. So that was a decade after you had left. And that was the headline. After you had gone to Africa, you had worked in sports, sports, broadcasting, you have done so many incredible things and that's how you are described still. Yeah. Does that still, I don't know if the word actually, does it play you or is it of benefit to you?

Speaker 4 (00:37:23):

This that's such a great question because I've had so many conversations, especially with Jen and Hannah song as well about this. It's like much music is like the best and the worst thing that can happen to you. Um, because it becomes something that really, really defines you in. And I think there's a certain amount of snobbery in journalism. Um, I'll say it, there's this hierarchy of, you know, if you do like foreign affairs, you know, that's like the real journalists, if you do like entertainment or lifestyle, Oh, they're not doing it. You know, whatever. That's just fluff. And I find that I, I find that's a really, um, privileged way of thinking about things because at much music, as you know, we did a lot of stuff. Like we covered politics, we went to different countries. Uh, we kind of in a way we're covering foreign affairs, but we were never given that same kind of, uh, credibility because maybe it was young people, maybe it's because it's music environment that people just write it off as not being important. Uh, which is interesting because like a decade after I left even now, well, COVID happened. There's a lot of celebrities who have now, uh, attach themselves to big issues. Uh, it's not just about celebrity anymore. It's about, what's my cause, what do I want to support? What can I do? How can I use my star power to move these conversations forward? And much music was doing that back, you know, when you were there. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:38:58):

Well, I'm doing it from time. I think the fact that you were chosen to be on camera, correct me if I'm wrong, you are a woman of color. And just by virtue of you being on camera was in fact a political statement to some degree. Yeah. Did you feel a responsibility to behave in a certain way because you were representing your community? This is the,

Speaker 4 (00:39:21):

The thing, cause I would celebrate because I, yeah. Let me think about how to answer this because, um, I don't want to miss the nuance because I'm a woman of color because I'm a black woman, I'm African. And also because of the way that I wear my hair, my hair alone is a political statement when I was on camera. Um, I had people from the black community, people who, because at the time, um, there's a lot of people wearing natural hair now, which is great. But back then, it was kind of like, why are you, why does your hair look like that? There was a lot of, um, there was a lot of shame they wanted me to do well. Um, I don't, they weren't attacking me. I think they wanted, it was more like, we're looking out for you. We want you to look like you're on TV, which is, you know, straighten your hair, wear certain clothing.

Speaker 4 (00:40:17):

I'm a tomboy. I think I remember I used to wear running shoes on air and now we're running shoes are everywhere. Um, but I just kind of felt like this is who I am. Why am I going to change it? And when we came to Canada, um, my, my name became Mary and I'm Guinea is, um, I was named after my grandmother and she died a few days before I was born. And she was no Guinea. And all of a sudden it's Mary, Mary, Mary. And I never felt like a Mary. So even before I started at much music when I was writing for the school paper and when I was writing for, uh, different publications around Toronto and just trying to get my name out, I started going by McGinney again. And I had people tell me why that name is too hard. Why don't you go by Mary again?

Speaker 4 (00:41:03):

Or why don't you change your name to something that's more pronounceable, which was just kind of like, okay. And eventually now McGinty, I shortened it to Nam. Um, I don't know. Maybe I did that because I was tired of having to, uh, say my name and tired of having to, um, ask people just to take me for who I am. Like, why should I have to bend into all these different things to be something that I am not? And I never realized how many, like you, when I said that those a lot of us were watching you. Um, and you and I are not that much different in age, but I didn't even realize that young girls five years younger than me were watching me and seeing you with my hair natural. And that meant something to them at that put, uh, that empowered them in a certain way.

Speaker 4 (00:41:55):

And people might say, well, what's the big deal with hair areas, political. Um, I think right now in the States, they've just passed an act called the crown act, which means that women, black women can't be discriminated against for wearing their hair in a natural state. Like this is 2020 people seriously. And this is the stuff that, um, that, uh, people have to deal with. So yes, as a woman of color, as a black woman, as an African woman, for sure. And also for me, um, I being in certain spaces was intimidating because I wouldn't see myself very much. I remember he went to the, was it the, not the Grammys cause the Grammy's, everybody's just, you know, and that's a great thing about music. Everybody's just who they are. Uh, we went, it was some kind of award show and I just felt so out of place because I didn't see anybody that looked like probably country music maybe. And then, and I think people were like, well, you should dress a certain way. You should wear this. You should do that. You should do this with your hair. And I know you got it too. Um, cause we were supposed to look a certain way and be sexy and whatnot.

Speaker 3 (00:42:58):

Here's the thing working at much music, as superficial as it may have appeared, there was this beautiful thinking behind Moses, which was, he loves, loved, loves ethnicity. He was putting people who looked like me and then you on camera when we were never seen before, the only people that were really on camera before us were white people that looked like Mary Hart, you know, it was, uh, uh, conservative, Canadian, um, you know, white community that are we're the chosen few. Yeah. He was a trailblazer really was. And he was what he was doing is he was putting Canadians. This is what Canada looks like. We're a melting pot. And right from day one, he wanted different people. He had Monica deal. And I don't know who told her to wear a sari, but she wore sari all the time. That was unheard of.

Speaker 4 (00:44:03):

I still have people asking me, do you know, Monica too old? Because she made such an impression, right. A master tea with his locks. I remember there was a picture. I think it was for city TV of all these different, like it was like, uh, uh, was it, um, it was a cameraman Morgan, uh, anyway, it was just all these different faces that what Canada is about, like the multiculturalism Moses was doing that back and he wasn't doing it in a way, like we're just filling in a spot. I think he really believed in that. That's what television should be. Well, he's also an immigrant. Yes.

Speaker 3 (00:44:41):

So he, he wanted to share the stories and the faces of, of himself, which is a Canadian immigrant.

Speaker 4 (00:44:53):

No, I like, I owe my career to Moses. I there's no way, I don't know if anybody else would have taken a chance on me like that. Right. There's I, and it's, it's aggravating that Canadian television seems to be so slow to catch up to what Moses started back then. Word. Yes. Let's even talk about like YouTube, YouTube used to be speaker's corner. You know, we want people, we want to know what people are thinking. Uh, say your views go to speaker's corner. And um, for me, I feel really proud to have been a part of that legacy. And I feel really proud that I was in an environment where Denise was like, wear your hair natural. Because I did have moments when I was like, should I straighten it? Should I change my name? And she was like, no, we want you for who you are to be yourself.

Speaker 4 (00:45:42):

Don't change anything. So it wasn't just me. That was like, I'm just going to do whatever I would like to think that I would have been able to, I would have been brave enough to stand firm. But when you have all these people, all these emails, all, you know, people saying this about you, at some point, you ha you're gonna buckle. If you don't have leadership supporting you and Denise supported me. And so did Moses and I am forever grateful for them allowing me, um, that opportunity. And even now, whenever I'm trying to think of who to suggest for the show, I'm always trying to think of what voice should we have on the, on TV. Let's let me go create relationships with this group of young people, get them on camera because um, everyone has, uh, a voice and we shouldn't be speaking for people whenever people like I speak for the voiceless voice.

Speaker 3 (00:46:35):

I'm like, why, why don't you just give him the bike? I'm like, why aren't you speaking for somebody? You know, it's like pass the mic

Speaker 4 (00:46:43):

And you and I in a situation where we can say, okay, we've done that. And it goes back to how we started the conversation about women supporting women. I want to see other women succeed. Like, I guess, you know, like I feel like that is, there's so much for everybody. And I want us all to do well. I want us to like, you know, like to smash the ceiling, like there are no, there are no limits. Like for my daughter, I'm one or two, like, whatever it is that you want to do, like do it, you know? And hopefully like I'm in a position where I can support you. Um, because it was such a like Erica, like there's only a handful of us in the world who have been much music BJ's. And how awesome is that to be able to have that, you know, yes, there were challenges, but think it was like, it was the, it was the foundation for me, uh, gave me a foundation to think bigger for myself and to, uh, and just to like, to rediscover my laugh and to meet all these cool people and to, and it was also a confirmation or maybe an affirmation that creativity, there is something in creativity because I think will become a lawyer, become this, but there is something in creating, being able to create on the go, like being able to create a conversation with somebody and to have it, like, when you look on YouTube and you see your interview, critical thing, like Holy cow, that's historical.

Speaker 4 (00:48:09):

Right. We were part of that. How cool is that?

Speaker 5 (00:48:12):

You talk about, uh, women supporting women and you actually walk the talk, you started something called media girlfriends.

Speaker 4 (00:48:21):

Well, I didn't start it, but I'm a part of it. And then I bought Dunkin, um, I'd CBC, she started it. And so it's a collective of women working to support the new, like the next generation. Uh, there's a scholarship and we just, uh, we crowdsourced, uh, I think it was, we were aiming for, I think the initial goal was maybe a thousand and then it went to five and then it ended up being 10. And then we, uh, or is it 75? Um, my mind is all muddled anyway. And we were hoping to just give one scholarship to one young woman. And we ended up getting some much support from people online that we ended up giving it to two people. And so I started, um, a podcast kind of, uh, just talking to other women about their journeys. Like, what made you do this?

Speaker 4 (00:49:08):

How did you, um, we did her first one was with me and we were talking about doubt because I think as women, there's always, there's always that no matter what you've done, there's that little nugget of doubt, like, do I, do I deserve to be in the room? Um, could I, you know, have I done enough or am I going to be, if I put my name forward for this, do I even qualify? Even though you like, I'm 97% of the qualifications and there are studies that show that men will see a job and maybe they'll have like 50% of the qualifications and they'll apply, but we won't. So from the podcast became the scholarship. But yeah, I really do believe that. Um, I, I just want to help, uh, I feel like in your introduction, you mentioned luck. Yes. I've worked really hard, but I've also been very lucky. I don't look at my life and think, Oh, it was so hard and all this bad stuff happened to me.

Speaker 5 (00:50:08):

Interrupting. I'm interrupting you right now, where exactly was the luck versus the incredible perseverance hard work that you have put in. Where is that

Speaker 4 (00:50:23):

Luck? Because I th I say the luck, because if I hadn't kept going, I would never have been able to have those opportunities,

Speaker 5 (00:50:32):

But that's not luck. Well, if you hadn't keep going, has nothing to do with luck. It has to do with your inner drive and your passion. And there is something in you that understood that you deserved better and you went for it. Other people don't go for it. Other people have these opportunities that are just out of reach. And instead they say, Oh, well, I won't be able to get it. So why bother putting my work in? Maybe because I didn't

Speaker 4 (00:51:08):

Have a choice because

Speaker 5 (00:51:11):

Everybody has a choice. You can lay down and curl into a little ball and, or go on the streets and you know, not do well. You did have a choice.

Speaker 4 (00:51:23):

I think it had to do with, um, no, thanks for saying that. Um, I think it had something to do with being, having the opportunities here, as opposed to what my life would have looked like back in Uganda, because by the time I came here, I understood what it was like to be a girl. Like you just didn't matter. Um, and I do matter, yes, honey, you just didn't, you just didn't. You know, and I, I knew just by being here, I had to try, um, one of the, the things that haunts me to this day is that when we came to Canada, my dad was looking after my cousin, his best friend's son, his, um, best friend, um, uncle John died. And he made my dad promise him to take care of Fisher. My cousin. So Fisher had been with us since his dad died. And then we went to Kenya and we were at the airport about to board the plane to come to Canada. And the police wouldn't let him come on. And they told my dad, you can only take four because they were trying to buy my dad. Oh my

Speaker 5 (00:52:42):

God. It's like, Sophie's choice. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:52:44):

They'd made him leave Fisher because I think I look at my dad. Um, and as tumultuous as our relationship has been, I think that part, that was one, his, uh, like a part of him just died, um, because he had, he also had a choice, right. He had a choice. He could have left us at any point. Cause my mom left when I was very small and he could have left us and then we would have been orphaned my baby. But because I think he grew up as an orphan. So I think he knew what it was, what was our cost. Um, so I always look back and I'm like Fisher never had this opportunity or, and I don't, I honestly, it was a survival. Um, and like, I don't want to say that I'm I don't know why. Uh, I really don't know why. Um, I just knew that I had this opportunity and I had to work and there were some lows, some lows. Um, and

Speaker 5 (00:53:51):

I'm sure there was some lows. I'm sure there have been many lows. Yeah. And that's the point now is that we look at you, I look at you and you are a beautiful success. You are obviously an incredible mother just by what your daughter is. Sort of whispering back to you. You're incredible on camera. You do beautiful interviews, but I wonder with success come sacrifice. What kind of sacrifice, if any, have you had to make in order to achieve the things that you are achieving today?

Speaker 4 (00:54:30):

That is a really good question. Um, I think for a long time, I was just on autopilot. I think I just put one step in front of the other and sacrifice. I think for me has been, um, you know, along the way, when I've been trying to figure out certain things like I've written articles or columns about our journey to Canada and you know, people in my family, um, I guess care more about those articles than they did of what would have happened to me back then when everyone just walked away from me. So I've never written anything that was like, this person's terrible. That person it's just been about my experiences. But when you write about your experiences, then people are called to account that were never held accountable. And that has fragmented relationships that weren't there to begin with. And my whole, when I do write pieces like that, I want people to know that they can survive things.

Speaker 4 (00:55:46):

I think we teach our children. We teach, we teach people that your value is in how other people see you. So if you don't have people that love you or care about you, then you're not worth anything. And for a long time, that's how I thought of myself. I thought that I wasn't worth anything. I thought that because I wasn't lovable was like, my mom left. I'm on my own. No, none of the adults in my life care if I'm alive or dead. And then I was like, I'm going to show up for myself. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to fight for myself. And that's what I'm trying to teach my children. Yes. It's great to have a million friends, but it's okay not to, you know, as long as you're good with yourself, I don't have to tell you, you're the best thing in the world.

Speaker 4 (00:56:37):

You know, you are the best thing in the world. You have to have it in your own self to fight for yourself. And that's honestly like it's not, I just, I was afraid half the time. I didn't. I remember using buying subway sandwiches and like cutting them into pieces. So I would eat them like through the week because that's all I had to eat. Um, and you know, there w there was a lot of lows. There was a lot of lows, but I just, I had this thing where, okay, you're going to have a bad day. You can give yourself a bad day to feel crappy about whatever's happening. And then the day after you got to keep moving, sit in it, move forward, sit in it, move forward. You want to stagnate for a few weeks, just stay in the same spot. Don't go backwards. I never drank for a long time because my dad's an addict. And I kind of like, okay, maybe I shouldn't do that. Um, so there was just little things where I try to have a little bit of discipline stuff that I could control. I couldn't control so much of the stuff that happened to me as a child, but what I could control was myself. I knew I didn't know what I wanted, but I knew what I didn't want. So I try to make decisions based on that. Um, I have to

Speaker 3 (00:57:58):

Two more questions and they're big. Okay. The first one is, what are you most proud of? You have achieved so much. You've had obviously your job that much, but you, you worked in sports media as a woman. Um, you've traveled the world and, and work with social justice groups. You're working at one of the most respected Canadian journalistic television shows right now. You're a mom. Um, what are you most proud of?

Speaker 6 (00:58:32):

Oh, you're not making this easy, Erica. Um, I,

Speaker 4 (00:58:37):

I think it sounds so cliche. Uh, but I'm so proud of myself for having children. Uh, and the reason I say that, close your ears, please, Bubba.

Speaker 6 (00:58:52):

Um,

Speaker 4 (00:58:53):

The reason I say that is because for a long time, I wasn't going to have children. I didn't want to have children because I just felt like the parenting that I had seen, or I thought that I would leave my kids. Cause my mom left us. And then I thought that anyway, long story short, I just kept thinking, okay, if, once upon a time, like say two decades past when I'm in my sixties, seventies and I look back on my life, will I regret not? And I would regret it. Um, and the reason why I say I'm proud of having, um,

Speaker 6 (00:59:26):

Now you can unplug your ears. It's a, she's homesick

Speaker 4 (00:59:33):

Is that they, I know that I'm not, I trusted my instincts and they have given me what I've been looking for my whole life, which is family. And, you know, some days are not great. Uh, I make mistakes, but I'm learning and I've learned and I'm seeing the world through their eyes has just been so magical. So I I'm proud that I held on. I'm proud that I kept taking a step towards this life that I have now. And I'm also proud to create a safe home for them. Um, and where, you know, they feel secure and, and they're left.

Speaker 5 (01:00:14):

Last question. What have you not done? That's that's on your bucket list.

Speaker 4 (01:00:24):

Such a great question. I would love to jump on a plane one day.

Speaker 6 (01:00:29):

I'm scared of Heights as you're dying. I'm scared of Heights. I used to work at the CN tower

Speaker 4 (01:00:36):

And on the first day they made you walk on the glass floor. And I thought I was going to, like, I thought I was going to like leave my body. Um, but I want to face, I I've learned how to face a lot of my fears. And I think just jumping out of a plane would just be so freeing. I mean, I don't know. I'm a very simple person. I don't, uh, maybe I need to dream bigger. I don't know, but I just, uh, I want to see, like, I want to be able to do something that completely terrifies me. And then too, I also did whitewater rafting, um, a level five on the Nile, which is awesome because I also don't like swimming. I can't swim, but I want to know how to swim.

Speaker 6 (01:01:18):

I know you can swim. I put you in lessons. Thank you so much, Erica.

Speaker 5 (01:01:25):

Listen, I, I have to just throw back a few things. I'm listening to you over this last little while. There are some things that you said that really stuck out to me that I want to throw back to you, um, which was, um, the power of creativity, um, for people who are listening to understand that there is so much power in creativity. And I always talk about the idea that, um, you may not use that creativity in your day-to-day job that you get paid for, but I challenge everybody to see how you can infuse that. And I remember when I first asked for Moses for my job at much, he said, what do you want to do at much? And I said something creative. And he got so mad at me. And his answer was, everything is creative. And then I thought about it and I was like, he is right.

Speaker 5 (01:02:17):

No matter what job you're doing, you should be able to find some way of adding your own personal flair into it. So I thought that was, that was really great. Um, and I like that you said I had to work because we all have to work. Yeah. That's the reality. And so I feel if you're going to work go a hundred percent in, yeah. People will respect you for it and you don't do it for other people. You do it for self yourself. And I think that that's something that you and I definitely have in common. Um, the idea of going to do it for myself is so important because you know, being, uh, for me anyway, I grew up in the public eye. And if I allowed any sort of adulation or, Oh my God, you're Eric M to make me feel whole than I would have died when I left much.

Speaker 5 (01:03:13):

But I didn't because to me much music, my success at much music was the act of doing the job. For me. It wasn't people watching me. It was me doing what I love to do. And hopefully that trickle down to other people because I like you definitely feel like I was a role model and continue to be a role model and everything that I do I do because I believe it's the right thing to do. And that would be what I hope people learn from me. And I I'm getting that. That's what seems to be important to you as well. Yes.

Speaker 4 (01:03:55):

Yes. I do think that, um, I recently something happened. There's been a few things that happened, uh, at work. And, uh, one of my managers said, why do you speak up? And I go, because it's the right thing to do. Uh, I said, it's not because I want to, um, cause I'm afraid to, um, you know, blow back and whatnot, but it's the right thing to do. And one thing that I've always tried to live by is feel the fear and do it anyway. You don't want it. You don't want to look back and say, what if I really don't think you can regret anything you've done, but you will regret things you don't do. Yes.

Speaker 5 (01:04:34):

You said that, um, the idea at much, could you believe that mastered T told you to call Chavon and you didn't do it? Yeah. And to think if, what if you hadn't called and for anyone listening, if that is the one thing that you take away from this, when there are opportunities that come your way, even if you think you're not qualified, because that happens to all of us. Oh, why would they pick me? Go for it anyway. Right. Go for it. Anyway, Nam.

Speaker 6 (01:05:06):

Thank you. Thank you, Erica. So

Speaker 5 (01:05:08):

Much. I, I want to be your BFF.

Speaker 6 (01:05:11):

Oh, you are my BFF. You whatever you want, Erica. Honestly, it's just so it's, I it's so cool

Speaker 5 (01:05:18):

For you to even do this podcast because I think it's going to, de-mystify the process. I hope much music does come back and I hope that people who are listening and if that's what you want to do, go for it. Uh, then speaking about the people who are listening, listen, you guys, you are really the reason why I'm doing the show. Well, it's a little bit for me because I am getting to hang out with people like now, but I want to hear from you, which is why we set up a phone line. How fancy are we so that you can call in and have your voice on the show? Um, the number is I hopefully you have a pen or S put it into your phone. (833) 972-7272. It's pretty easy. (833) 972-7272. And you can call in, you can share your stories, suggestions on who we should interview next.

Speaker 5 (01:06:12):

Maybe you met one of the on-air people in real life. And what was that like? Or maybe you remember a specific much segment that you would like to talk about, or maybe have a burning question that you'd like me to ask a future guest. Really. I really want to hear from you and also feedback on the show. What are you liking? What should we change? Um, this is a work in progress and it really is a passion, a passion, a play for me. And if you're not a phone type of person, you can always reach me on the internets. I'm all over social media, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, just search Eric M and you'll find me. So again, thank you so much. I'll see you next week with another episode of reinvention of the VJ here's to living a life filled with music, meaning and many reinventions.

Speaker 2 (01:07:03):

Thanks for listening. Follow Erica M's re-invention of the VJ podcast, subscribe and follow more episodes. Click to reinvention of the vj.com podcast produced in collaboration with Steve Anthony productions, editing and coordination of flower communications, inc. Copyright 2020.

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